>> charlie: welme to the broadcast. tonit education, healthcare, china and more with the president of yale university, richard len. >> china's progss toward liralization, towar freedom of expression, towards rul of law is only going to be helped by our engageme, our example. the more studes that com to the u.s. and experience freedom, better off we are. they're gog to go home and they'rgoing to hav a tte of what a free societ is. american uversities are actually the best instrument of diplomacy that the united stes s. >> charlie: t president of ya for the hour, next.

captioning snsored by ro communications from o studios in new york city, this is charlie se. charlie: rick levinis here theresident of yaleerts millions 1993. he has expanded yale abroad a at home. he visited china 12 times in the last 8 years. he's established many joint ventures with their universities. the endowment has beenit hard. he serves o president oma's

adsors of sciee and technology. i am pleased to have him back at this table. welcom >> thanks for hang me. >> chaie: let me do a qck o, you grew up in stanford and went to oxfor >> lost the rhodes competition but i got a prize from the glish speaking union. it was embarrassing because my wife had aeady won --he was then my fiance. she had already one a fulbrig and i came home empty from the ro competition along with other people then i t this csolation prize and it's been two wonderful years. >> charlie: she h a fulbright and you had an english speaking union nd you went to oxfordnd got a bhelors. >> at i got is now a master' degree it was just a degree where you write an independent thesis. do an independent stud >> charlie: econics and philosophy. >> philophy and polits. >> charlie: d you think of

beg an economist at this time. >> i was a history major in stanford and i took a couple economics courses. but when igot to oxford realized i didn't nt to be storian. so i went through a transition. i decided i want to be a economist, b oxford at that me was not the place to study economics. u.s. was dinitely a place to study onomics. i nt to see isah berlin the grt philopher and asked him what t do he lood at an essayed hey given him and he said you could write more clearlyo w don't you start philophy for a year and we'ltribe you up to write clearly. then do some thesis about the hiory of social science and hen on and study economics. so i d a thesin max, the great german social tnkerment my secd year i had a fabulous time. meanwhile i taught myself mat to go to grad school and ecomics. >> charlie did y think you

would drt towards being an administrato >> it wasn't liki had a professional airation to do is but i had a nural gravitation to admistrative tests. the day i left graduate schl and joined the falty they assigned me to run the introductory econocs course whic d 19 different seions ought independently. i had to coordinate 19 people some of who were faculty members an some are graduate students. so i was doing admintrative rk from day one. >> charlie: i arrived a yale university as a fshman, let's y. >> yale should be so lucky. >> charlie: why should i study economics? >> well, it ope, it ope a different perspective the world. i fd it a great diipline. m not sure i would recommend it to every undergraduate because i think . >> charlie: ne. >> i wouldn't recommend it to every unrgraduate becse i think, i think tt there are some who a broad subjec like history forephilosophy mighte a betr way to start. but economics as an intellectual

elegance that's citing, you learn to use mathematical tools for a practical end and has an exciting end to my tas of, you know, intellectl figure of strucralizing problems and i peer cull relevance. you can makeheoretical models of factuallymportant things in the world. so i like that interplay. 's to very exciting. why indemnity political science. >> i studied history and then political sence. i like the intellectual rigorf economics. at that timeoliticalcience has become more mathematal since en. but i love theort of elegae of the basic, of e basic micro economic theor it all hung together beautifully. charlie: can anybody make

thsimplistic argument you came from the life of the mind and you want to be the life of action and decisions. >>absolutely. >> crlie: and power. >> not so much the power because i see more rvice an power. >> charlie: right. >> but, yes. from the life of t mind to life of of action. om the very beginning this was the choice to move from history to economics was conditiod by that. he we wer it was 1968 in oxford and i w sitting the athe instruction of my tutor at oxford, sdying the roles of who are the soldie in the hundred years war. in the 14thenturynd'm thinking to myself, at does this have to do -- is thishe life i want to lead. to i want to be monastic and squirred away in a liary. i have enormous respect four the great historians a the kind of work that goes into creating great histor bu i thati'm more actiory.

i want a life that's more social interaionive, talk to more people and i want to be ae to ntribute something tothe rld around m so the switch, jt th switch of disciines is alrey thinking i could have an acemic life, the life of the mind at the same te be preparing myself for public service and a contribution to certain. >> charlie: did isah berlin asif you wer a hedge huge or a fo >> he didn't at that te but that was a wondeul wonderful essay and i use tt metaphor all the time. charlie: how do you use it. >> i gave once entire speech to i think it was the graduating niors about what ki of person are you. are you hed h or a fox. >> chaie: do you have many ideas. >> exactly. >> charlie: and you. >> oh, i am definitely aox. i like t think a fox with some vision, with some big ideas, but

not one big idea. >> charli now would someon like james wson be perfect hedge hog. we need somebody who has one consuming econic idea, whether it was someo like milton friedman as -- >> as berlin argue very persuasivelythere's a al limitation on t true hedge gs, on the peoe with the one big idea. >> crlie: i never quite know what theig idea was. that's my problem >> a big idea in berlin of course is he talking about totatarian conceptualism. he thinking about comprehensivtheories of society and nature. plato with the ideal form is a hedg hog. aristotle is a fox. tolstoy is a pern who nted a

hedge hog. heanted an over arching theory of history but in truth he was a foxed as expressed in his iting in something like war and peace, 's such a beautiful interweaving, many complex people and pernalities. >> chaie: exactly. ma yourshort speech to me about someon who iust enteringigh school. then we'll on to colle. and perhs graduate school. what theyought toget for thselves. >> get a rig rug foundatn. we have altered high school curricula these days in such a way tha students can escape actually gettingigorous foundati and still do very we. that's why yale insists on, you know, folling subjects all the way through four years of english and writi, youknow, of th essentially rough calculus, at least two years, if not three of science.

and some mastery of a foreign language. i thk you reall you really needhose thingsfou want to move on to scess. gh school is the time to do that rigorous fodation. in my view, you don'teed to take economics or psychology as a high school student, althou many schools fer that. math, science,istory literature >> charlie: thenly thing i would add to thatsnglish. >> best, the basic five. that's mh science history- >> litature and languages >> charlie: maksure that you walkway because they'll serve you. >> absolutely. >> charlie: they will serve you. >> i feel very strongly about that in gh school. i would persolly love it if we had a ltle more structurein the unrgraduate criculum of our colleges. but -- >> charlie: t's moving th y or away from that. >> a little bit that y. >> charlie: having steered

away and coming back. >> t eleive system has domited higher education system since it was introduced in the 19th centy. >> charlie: is that good. >> it's good in one way that sensthat it allows studes to really explo and find their passion. you say what would i tell, entering freshman, that is what i tl them every year i hato give areshman address and i ve to find a new historic example or some new discsion of the contemporary global issue as lead-in to basically divering the same message which is this place ha abundantant resoces, yale has great museums, fabuloufaculty. you can ke the most of this but the main point is sampl try things, take rks, try subjec you're not comfortable with and somewhere that process you wl find something you love. and go for what you love. you knowe graduate 1300 student a year at yale. i wouldn't sa all 1300 have that epiphany t a lot of them

do. greamajority comeway with a cple passions. something it's learned i the classroom and th learn in the extra curricular -- >> charlie: passion wh they want to do,passion for what they want to ber passion for whathey nt to complish. >> i'mhinking hinking what theye thinking about, what ey love doing. >> charlie: you should discover that at the university. >> y. it doesn' mea you disver a career. you may decide you love music anit's a part of your life that doesn'tmean you'll becom a mucian, you may not have the talent for it. find somhing that's going to deeper your soul, give you rich life. >> charlie is theniversity doing l it can andll it should and a itought to to help us find those things. >> i think we are in the group of institutions in which yale setsave extordinary reurces. >> charlie: th's nothe

issue. clearly. is the connect beg made is my queson. >> yes, ielieve so. >>harlie: it'sot an exerci in terms of that doesn't allowhat thingo happen the flrishing o riosity and connections. >> i think the students today are just extraordinarilyble and extraordinarily curus and they -- >> charlie: and the univerty goes out of th way to make sure they avail themselves of everhing there. >> very much so. yale's prty good at this. i'm not surevery ititution ts as much adult presence into e students lis. u go to a big sta university anthe resources, intellectual reurces are just as good at ya's. it a fabulous faculty and great opportunities but tre's not as much mentong on counseling. livingith stackallity an advisors like we havat yale ch. that mattershaving people watch out for you. when you tk to yale steurts who graduate, thell tell you,

there were people, adus who maered to them whothey would get to know, they have alose advisor they know their residential coege dean, those ople who played a role in theilives. that'svery important. charlie: how has ild changed over t last. u have the longest tenure of y ivy league college esident. how h it changed sinou starte >> well fsthe university. then th students. well the university has been able to do things becse of the,ou know, enormsgrout of our endowmenthat have just made it more attrtive enronment and a more enronment capable of doing re for the students. for one, we've powered enormous resourceinto financial aid. probably mos important complishment with thos resources has been to make yale affordable for every family. >> charlie: anybo could get in yale coul get an edution fr. >> not free, no no. well in our music school yes but the coege, anyone, an family with incom under

$60,000 goes for free. families within say the 60 to $200,000 ran get ver substantial nancial aid. so the average family that recees financial aid pays less than $1000. >> charlie: if you're the boast brilliant d in the world and you're father a billionaire, you get no aid. >> tt's right. no merit aid. >> charlie: just taking it away from someone else. >> exactly. it's entirelyistributed on financial need. so you pay theull $47,500 if your parents can afford it. >> charlie: 47,5 is what it costs to yal for a year. >> yes,toes. >> charlie 47,5. >> even the families are paying that 47,5 whi is a lot of moy are only paying about half of the st of yaleducation. >> chaie: what have you learned othe ground about the

acevement. >> well,ou know, it's so hard to measure these. assessing kids for admission and how to measu their likelihood of scess at yale, it's very ha work. >> charlie at the end ofhe hard work, what haveou learne >> we do our best. what do we learn? we do learn that test scores matter but not -- theifference between somody who gets 1480 an 1680 out of600, youan't, that doe't mean very much. i mn you know, abe a cerin threshold you're very cable of doing the work. but if you come to yalend your te scores are 1100, there are none at that level but you would struggle. would be very hd. >> crlie: to mak it. >> yes yowould have a hardime keeping up with your mass caulates.

it crude indicator of ctest. >> charlie how have the students chaed. >> it' amazing. because when we complain about secondary education andalk about l these statistics about how we're falling behind, most european cotries, korea and japan. >> charlie: that's not just talk is it. >> the averages are clearly, are problematic but theop end,ou know, the onhalf of 1% at the to the kind of peoplee see in our applicant pool, they're speccular. and they g better. >> charlie: so we do see stronger academic potential. >> i think we're seng, it so goes in waves. but i think in tast few years, morenterest in,ou kn, social contribution. charlie: less interest, for the lack of betr word, wall street. >> yes, exactly. it's unfair to blame wall street. i mean, ls interest in

personalinancial success, more interest in how can i make a difference in the world. as a 60's brat, i fin that very nderful. >> charl: let me turn to the endowntuestion. >> yes. >> charlie: you h one of the most successful sptacular event at this tab, is spectacular at growth rates of over 16%. what's the decline in your endowment. >> our investment term is last year, preliminary estimates were down 25% and of crse we spent 5%. so it means the value ofhe endowment is down . >> charlie: ifhe endowment was at 100 million, it's down -- >> it would be at 70. so in fact the declines from almost 23 billiono 16. >> charlie: to16. whatmpact did that have on the university. >> significant. >>harlie: in terms of hiring fact actual. >> it's a substantialmount of

money. it's a bdi cline on the endump. if you spend% in the lg run, that's a $350 million year hit to our opering budge which is about point 8 billion dollars. necessary reductn and expenses have to underke over the next few years. >> where - >> crlie: where do y put that in terms of the changes r the university. >> itis a change. we me moves ts past year that hav eliminated about half that gap, maybe a little more than half. >> charlie: wha budget anges. >> we reduced the expenditures on nonfaculty personnel, o all of the administrativestaff by 7.5%.

we reduced spendure on nonsalary its, materials and supplies by 7.5%. we frozehe salaries of all people making more than $75,000 and increased saries of those belo $75,000 by only 2 percent %. >> charl: let me to awe broad. ifeel verytrongly america has been too insar society. every day you read e wspaper, if yo hiccup in cha or if there's problem in brussels, you feel iin the united states and veersa. so tse things are, careers are goin for students today are going to involv global perience. whatev your profession, business, you need to know abo

the world. i lieve, think it's partl rsonal, a product of my own study abroad, i spent six months in italy asn undergraduate, two years in britain i think ere's a learning skill beyond reading o oral expression, mathatics that's cacity to understand peopl with different value cross cuure, the capacityor cross ltural. >> charl: isn't it in part to understand the culture and e people of china. and to facilite our students gting tt kind of capacity to understand the world. ina has been the leading case, ally invested hvily there but aually we're deloping global experiences for all our students. we are now providing opportunities for about 1200 of our under graduates a year to go abroadnd we cover their costs if they're on financi aid.

this is a way to make sure tt students get some kind of seriou exposure to another society and begin their values. we have a number of foreign students at yale wt was aut percent piss wh i startedo % today. >> charl: most of them com from asia or latin america, europe. >> china is the most heavily represented foreign coury, but you know, they'r only small percentage of the class, 1%. we have, they are all over, europe and stern europ and asia, latinmerican and some fromfrica. the major move there wasto give internationa studts the me kind of need-based fincial aid that we give americantudents. ameran universities were t doing before we took this move in 1999. that's made a big difference because now the students we get from abroad e not only the children of wealthy families who know about i league schools

but we're starting to g fabuloustudents from eastern europe or ruia or china where parents don't have economic means at all, in fact they're getting fullinancial aid. >> charlie: and your biggest university relationshipeyond china iswhere? >> well,e're developing a lot in indiaight now. we have hisrically qui a bit of strength in t study of japan. we have a lot of strength this say latin america and of course western rope. buour focus now having built a really stron twork of relationships in china an partnershipsas been india. wee building up our faculty in that area. we hired the noble laurte, he's going to serve on ahalf time basis. we're buildi tiesith his stitute delhi which focuses

on environnt sustainability. and were looking to build up partnerships. we're ruing like our chinese governnt leadersh programs where we educate chinese prime american stirs on conmporary issues wre doing the same for a group parliament tainers loving to come to yale in o years. do y get fincial suprt fr these countries when you go there. >> limited. we have a lot of these progra abro juices partly fromur donors and undation support we've t gotten a lot of suppordirectly from the foreign vernments althoh we've gosome partial support. >> charlie: what aut the mid east d the arab rld? >> we are hing to getore action going to the middle east. we've g a number of interesting progra, our divinity school has some terrific invvements with

muslim clerics. we've built a fabulous enterprise called the comm word whi is a christian dialogue. then ofourse on faith and globalization, where it is looking worldwide at religious conflict andhow can you use region for a force for grin in the world as oppos for force for -- christian musm conflict and of course he'seeply involved in the middle east. and he's, y know, he's heing us push the envelope in the middle east as well. we're talking wi several universities in the middle east abt potentially partnerships too in theciences and engiers. >> charlie: nd africa? >> africa we've got quite a lot ofapacity blding ograms going on. we have a proam, we have some programs that work with developing capacity to treat

aids in sou africa, freland has run for years, medical researchers in ghana, in our public health schools doing great workraining medical clinical administrats, people -- i wld say hospital administtors but more small field healthlinics. and there's a fabulous course r these people that's used in ethiopiand a number of her cotries in africa. we're thinking of digitizi thatourse and king it much more widely available as a health nagement teaching tool around the whole developing world. charlie: because you frafl so much, because you talk to everyby, because you have access toverything, how it the perction of america different today? >> well i think there's no dou th the kind of unilateralism of t resent bush administration did hurt america's snding in many countries.

i mean people didn't understand the raonale for the iqi war, they didn't undetand the signing of the accords. ey think ameca was a little too confidenof its own judgnt and not willi to consult and work with its allies sufficntly. i think it'very clear that president obama has sent signals that he wants to reverse that percepti. as f as i undersnd there are really quite serious conversationgoing on between e uned stes and other countries rking towards achieving a deal. imean, we're seriousbout it. and we're taking seriouslyhe needs of other countries and we're notwe're not dictating to the chinese orhe indians here's what yogot to do, we're trying to find t what are they willing to . and show what we're willing t do and com to annderstanding. i think thas a gre step forward. charlie: whats your -- oking at education in cna

ich you've sn first hand, certnly at the univerty level, at the highe education. how itdifferent than american higher ecation? and h are they changing to coete with american higher education? >> this is a subje that i've been intimately involved with. i've bn working with a group of chinese univsity presents and their leadership tes for the last five years, we get tother in the summer. first year we d it, i w really a training session, u ow, we gave tm a coursen how americanniversies work. and each year sin the sort of sus patrn hasshifted away from, you know, us conveyingo them how we run undergradua education or w we organiz the university to listening to the reforms this have under y. it i quite amazing. in america, i takes a long time to move a university, to reornize it and chang its curriculum. >>harlie: in curcula. >> they'reoving in light speed. >> chaie: it's a stimulus

prram. >> exactly. they've concluded the highest levels that they need me creatity and novation from e next generation. charlie: traditional argument conventional sdom was yes they we really smt but they did not have, thatmerica would ways doetter with the chinese but always do well because it hadomehow in its educatio it taught or created an abity to think creatively. >> exactly. and you know, the classroom methods we use, the drawing -- charlie: dialogue and everything else. >> the kind of exams we give, which aren't what the textbook says, we ask, you know, here are two interpretatis of th causes of world war i, which one would youavor and why. >> charlie: exactly. >> so we get people t thinkor themselves. the chinese realize they have to do that. >> charlie: how did they.

>> everying in china is s different om here. it ces from the top down. they havealotf very smart people in government, and think this is rightromhe top. tao enciated his five yr plan which is about creativy and innovati. we don't want get to e point in our economic development where wee exhausted our surus labor supply, what they have now. they have low cost labor migrating from country side to cities that's why they have a big rang. some day ty'll call that labor up, he full empyment in high playing industry and wages will start toise and just like any country that develops, it happed to japan, when they develop the only way you can compete not through manufacturing cost but through knledge and innovation. they reali that day will come in china 20 yearsrom now. >> charlie: manufacturing is then shipped to somewhere else. >> so we'll be manufacturing in innesia or africa.

>>harlie: exactly. >> the development process wl rely get on track. >> crlie: does that all have to do with the st of labor. >> no, but it has to do with how to mobilize resources, how societies are organized h the right infrastrture is built. chinese isbrilliant at building infr sucture and reay cilitating the growth. >> charlie: how do you explain eir security reflected in the current crises andlso in tibet. >> t curnt wear crises. >> chaie: yes. >> do you know, it's a very complex societ it spans a bigeographic area there are these ethnic tensions the chinese have hisrically, at leastor manyyears, been the majority. the chinese would lik to bring up, they would like to lift all boats with their economic progress b like in erica the effect of their economic development is distruted

unevenly. that's a source of great tension. and the society. th's why you see thes demonstrations and tngs happening all over china. in the minori groups anin e regions that are in far northwest, the far noreast and areas tha are lesseveloped. chinesare very concern about this because thealk about harmonious development. theyant to bring all of the elements of societylong t the development process is e growths going to te pce in the urbanized area. and so they are building inastructure, they're building highways, they'r creating cities in these remot regions thatill be -- >> crlie: the es justifie the means philophy, ie, ok, we got to build this thing sohatever we have stood to maintain our power in orde to make this economic prosperity to continue, youl just to the rest of the world le to it,

that thettitude. >> that'a blunt way of putting it but tt's not far fro the trutbecausehey doeel that china is such a comex deerate society tha they don'txert aot of social control, they cat keepthe progress moving forward. >> crlie: you talk thi to the university people. >> you bet. the intesting thing in china i think is the's a lot of freedom of dialoguin intellecal commity. in theuniversities, you can talk politics. you can be critical of t vernment, youust don't write about it very much. you don'tdemonstrate on t streets. >> charlie: what do y think ofhat, a man who ces from, you know, the academyhat is what mes the academy wha it is. the ability toward free expeace. >> china's progress towards liberalization, towards freedom of expression towas rule of

law is only goingto be helped by our engagement and our exame. the more studes that come to the.s. and eerience freedom, better off we are. so ty're going to be home and they're going have a taste of what a fr society is. american uversities are actuly the best itrument of diplomyhat u.s. has. students who come hereand live here go home deeply rpectful american values because the see what it's like. they e what a marvelous thing it is to be able y whatever you like, to be able , you know, criticizanyone. >> charl: and not have the internet censored. >> absolutely. i think engagement is the best hope for theiberalization of china. >>harlie: and the change o the political system. >> eventually. >> charlie: not just -- . >> well there's freedomof expression.

there' rule of law. are transactions going to be arbitrary based on law. and then there's choice of leadership. ere's democracy. ose are separate things and obviously they're related in our country. buyou can imagine more free speech witho necessarily havi -- >> charlie: respecti intelltual property. >> put that under the rule of law rule. but i think there's been some prress in all these fronts. i'll tell you, i really started going to china onl in 2001, only eight years ago. but haveeen just in tha brief time very much liberalition of the press and media. the kind of things thatre talked about no now gnt it i only can hea the engsh language tv and read the chinese english language pre. but the quhoi-- but the cna daily which is the english

language paper, ars ago there wano government criticm. remember the foot safety crises a year or two ago. there were critical articles, self critica articles out the response tohe earthquake disaster. >>harlie: in an interesting way you say highe education but also technology willlearly change in time. >> t tru is suppressiof free speecis very -- >> charl: very difficult. >> these kids in the unersities, ey know how to getround the censorship. they know, they got waysf doinit. so they go to some, the director out to get to google and things arelocked. they kind an indirect route and they get there >> charlie: theconomy today. you're an econist. >> yes. >> charlie: for a whe there, thereeemed to be hope that the economic recovery was at a certa place. that at least the ll had

stopped, the contrtion had stopped and that there were green shoots in all of the exessions used,youand iboth know. >> right. charlie: where are we now. well the fallnever stopped. the rate of decline abated. so, you know, it was no the, it was not that we stopped falling, it's that the cnge fm month month with aot as awe er before. everybody applauded when the unployment rate went up 2/10ths of a percent or only 300,000 bs lost instead of 500,00 in tha month. 300,000 lost is a lot of jobs to lose in a month. so we are still on the decli. unemployment is still risin and it wl continue to rise inmy ew forome time. >> charlie: arehe banks lending money. >> apparently more.

ere was an encouraging news on the mortgage lending front in today's papers. parently there been me improvent. i talk to some people who said that financing for small and medium size businses is now starng to improve. >>and corporations are willing to invest at money in terms of capital improvements. >> you know, one ofhereat thin about american entrepreneursh is there are people with ideas propping up everminute. >> charl: -- goldman sachs. i'm not an optimis i thinwe'll be in the ough foa wle. >> charlie: owong. what's a while. >> another year, at least. so don expect any real prress from now until the end of 20. >> yes. ihink the tur around is, you know. >> charlie: i realize nobody

likes to be to be pinned down. you have expectaon on the part of the admintration on a certain owth level. is that changing? th comes out of wall street a different sort of the pjection gdp. >> ihink the sort of conconveniences -- >> charlie: what's the for cast -- >> for nextear, no. for 2010, they're stillalking aboutheopeful forecasts e 1% or 1.2. the pessimiic forecasts are 7/10ths of a point. it will be a while. >> chaie: i've had peop come to this program and they exessed two ideas. paul kruggen. we need another stimus don't we. >>ign me up.

everybody touched by noble laurte. he was agreat econost of the great depression. he formulated mise theory based on dression and saidconomic theory tells you there can't be unemployment. nouch thinas involuntary unemployment. he developed a theoryhat explained . >> chlie: that was to inve or stimulate the econo in order to deal with it. >> under certain conditio, such we're inow, such as we were in in the 1930's. monetary polic alone, lowing inrest rates, raising money supply would not be sufficient to induce thinvestment in the prive sector so the gornment d to make direct investnt itlfn order to create js. at was the number one insit.

and i think it was as valid todayas it was there. that's why last time we spoke inrmally, i was crical of the stimus package because i thought the origin stimulus package because i thought it madeoo many concessions t congressional potics in the sense that i was halfax abatement anonly about half direct creation. i think we needore creation and we nd it soon. >> charlie: how should we do it. >> i have a way of doing it that nobodyeems to like. agn, congressional polits. the simple way to sta and get the ecomy moving is to take not shovel-rdy projects that will in tth nd six months t get movg, take the prects that are already being funded by state and local governments. the's a school being built ght on my blo. there's a brid over the river being built. thesere projects under way. double the employmentn those prects tomorrow. go tell people g hire more

subcontracrs. give them the money to accelerate t rate of these constructionrojects. that wld work. i mean 'such easier to administ. you already got the contracts you've got these things going, just give thesepeople more money and make them put me people to work. that's just a start inhe constructi sector. government pcurement. buy more stuff. >> charlie: the congress -- >> why? i'll tell you why congress. if you look at how the money is being spent on, can't remember, mo than a thousand individual pjects earmarke those are new projects bethe congress can take thn their local district. obama said to congress essentially the quest we need this much in job creation. he let the congress designit. basically said youick the projects. and what we got effectively was a whole hodgepoe of new

produc, many of whichaven't started yet. the money's are authorized and we don't have all that money. w there aistake on the part of the obamadministration to take thatpart. >> look inderstand why they made the decisio because they wanted congressional buy-in. they initiallyanted t tax cuts because ty wanted republican votesthey didn't get republican votes, ey had to buy three ves with other meures. you know, i would have taken the greater risk and gone directly to people and id i was elected with amandate to fixthis crises and here's theay i e it and write to your congressman because ieed yourupport. i would ha done tt at the beginning ofhe administration. >> charlie: do you think that isis style. >> my friends by the way in the administration wergreat economists wm i greatly respt. they don't think i'm politically naive. >> charlie: they always say that. they say if you knew politic like i kw politics you would understand. >> inow is true. it's not myprofession and i ve great respect for forhe

people. >> charl: you know tse ople. some are yr good friends. what are they saying now,ike they mad mistakes or the can do thingsnow to fix the econo or are they wringg their hands saying we n't know what to do. >> i'm actually huge fab of larry summers and ben bernanke and i think they a honestly trying -- those are the oy people i kn personally. i think these peoplare working hard to do things asthey best see them subject to what ty see as the political -- >> charl: who should be th next chairma of e federal reserve. rnanke or larry summers. i'm not going to vote on that. i think they're both eremely capae people. [laughter] >> charlie: so yale preside traid as an economy sist ss i have no opion. >> i' not going to express one. [laughter] >> chaie: okay. so you have a program already,

how you would stimulate the economy. build existing projes state and locaand double the money and say go hire mor people and get it done faster. >> exaly. and the goverent procurement contracts, yes. >> charlie: what else suld we do erms of the stimulus? yo need a new stimulus progm. he is an argument made against what you know much better than i do. pele come to this table and say there's a basic ride on this question. and e administratio knows that. and the divideays we can takeore debt. can't take me debt. >> yes. it's a serious problem. and it does mean you ha to have a stimulus packe and you're going to have to follow it with a period of serious fiscal discipline asthe economy recovers. the biggest fiscal poly mistake of the most resent administrationas to not use the time of economic, robust econom growth to bldup a governme surplus. inton did it. the tail end of the clinton

administration, you remember when cnton left office, we were loong at $30 billion surplus. >> charl: they did that b e decisions they madenhe begiing of 92, 93. budget deficit haw that b ruben was, right or wrong >> right, that'sight. >> charlie do it at the last minute, the republicans are arguing th, the repubcans will argue now, they'll come in herend argue that yes they presented a surplusuthe yes they present an economy that was losing steam. and all of audden, u know -- >> in 2001. >> charlie: yes, in 2001. that's what th argued. >> we have the internet. >> charlie: yoriend the presidt argues that. he does. me on. he sought your council, president bush. >> he is a good honest man.

>> charl: you know that better tn i do. the republicans made the argument when presented with the argument of rplus yes, there was a splus, yes, we had a r, choice and the argued, on the other hand theyrgued the economy as presented h the seeds ofts own decline on i u reject that. >> i do rejt that. charlie: any republican sa they inherited an economy it was not l they made howhe to be, you say they're flat wrong. >> there was the weakness in this internet assebubble. but as iturned out, at was a very transitory thing that di't last long d didn't take the economy into a deep recession. >> charlie: it was the choice they me given what they we given -- choic they made rath than what they were given by the cnton economy. >> that's right. and they cut taxes n for fiscal stimulus but for it logical reasons, they wanted to cutaxes. >>harlie: they were elected in fact.

iouldn't haveut taxes at that pointn the economy i would ve used e rplus -- the -- i would not have dissipated the growing surpl i uld have used it to sort of fix healthcare and social curity. >> charl: how would you have fixedealthcare. >> manof the same ways that obama's looking at now. >> charlie: do yoknow the chois he going to make. >>o. >> charlie: they're going to be written -- these are tuf choices. >> charlie: you're an economist. you belie healthcareeform can be budget -- can be deficit neutral. >> i think if one of the goals is major expansion of corage, it's going to be vy hd to make it cost neutral. i do think that we need to think about how we can reduce the cost of healthcare. but th real truth is, the on wathat's reay going to happenis ifhe habits d norms of how we end money in

the st ye of life change. i mean,he great expenditure in healthcare has to do with,ou know, how much w do in the, you know, the end. that's a socia and moral and etcal question. >> charlie: tre's much bigger cost. >> this recent artic in the new yorker aboutisparities in healthcare in gions just by the norms of ysicians, in the wn of texas, mcdown texas he tas about. >> charlie: hawaii. >> where physicns prescribe many many many moreests becausof the way ty are organized and ey get the ecomic benefit fromt. in conast to let's say the mayo cnic, onehirdhe cost of getting the same health. >> charlie: the argument that evybody'sp in arms over, the public secto of healthcare reform. and people likeoe califano

will say we have half the health care in america is public it is medicare and medicaid. >> that's right, thas right. charlie: others will step forward to say medicaris a disastern terms of its efficiency. i don't knowhat. >> charlie: efficiency. i'm not confident that that's true. i mean, it's not, it's in some areas dficult for the althcare providers because it's not really fully compensatory >> charlie: lete close this conversation wh this point. >> sure. >> charlie: you're on the president's adviserierks i'm ience and technology. >> science and technoly. >> charlie: a there any women in this group. >> of course. we have some very able women scientists includi one yale ph.d.

>> charlie: great. i kn you do. >> the purpose is to give adve to john holder as the science adsers and through him to the president. >> charlie: what ki of advice do yowant togive to him. >> we're looking aa whole lot of eas. they want advice on, you kw, ere it's sentific advice i helpful,hey'd like to have it. what new aas of tenology that they pursue. what shall ey d about creating condions for the next area of indurial growth. at investments do you need to ke full advanta of green technologies or wt infrastructus -- electric ca. >> charlie: mbe these are big environmental issu. are you going weigh in on stem cell andssues like that. >> i kind ofoubt that. think they'll come to u when they want scientific and technil advice. 's kind o a two-way thin >> charlie: how out funding for nih and places ke that.

>>ell, i think it's a little bit of a bias t comttee because it's almost all scieist and one univeity president. we're going to be strong for science fundg but the president is already there. he gave a fabulous speech to the nation academy of science. >> charlie: i think i've said thisnhis programecause i heard it this wk. the thing that amas him is how we don't recognize how much people like the preside and bob gates d others, they set forth what they belie and thr agendain much re sophisticated wain their speeches than we reali. speeches have tended to be igred in a nse. but this president and is administrationnd perhaps others, understa that that's the place that y define, who you are, what you want, wher you want to go. whether it'sew nuclear nonproliferation, whher it's a man on the moon, wtever it is, you s the national agenda in

the way you set the aspiration and then you set the action agenda by t way you propose to the congre. >> it's noty accident that lincoln is oba's favorite president. lincoln's eeches are the most brunexample wehave in american polital history of speeches that deal wit substance and als with it in a sophisticad way and 1ing an agenda. he isodeling himself after lioln. >> charlie: s there a risk we will lose, is is back to sciencend technologyhat we may just lose the leawe v not so mh because we don't intend to do it, because everybody else pecially china and india, theye very smart about whatit delivers. we stillhave some things that

those countries don't hav >> charlie: wt. >> we still have the greatest research universits. >> charlie: tt's part of their agenda. the year 2025 cha says it wants tw of the top 20 great unersities in the world >> leaving 18 for t u.s. [lauter] >> charlie: >> charlie: looksad now. we've got 20 of them now you optimiic about america. >> i'm always optimistic about americ >> charlie: becse. >> because it's a great country. we ve -- [laughter] >> i mean, it is morehanny society in history, a ld of opportunity. people can go from t bottom to the top in this country more easy than ywhere else. >> crlie: the best way to do that is educations the president will tell yo as the president of yalwill tell you and the president ofhe neighborhood - >> your os of leaving the ttom quintilethe bottom 20% of the income distribuon are

tripled if you go toollege. your odds of gting out of the bottom is 20%. >> chaie: are tripled. >> even if you go to community college. >> crlie: that's a bet i would make. rick lev presint of yale university, a great gat universi. i hope we have somehow shared the enthusiasm and the respsibilities of the university psident as well as theense of excitement that universiti ought to be doing out learning, tools o arning and the joy of learning. and finally some sense of how educion's becoming increasingly globalnd universities are sprding all over thelaces are other cultural institutions we are letting. tis are-changing as mr. dillon says. thanks for joining us. see you next time.

martha jane frieich valueser independence. i alwa wanted to be my own bo. i started two home business which enable me to stay me and take care of aunt viinia. who's almost 99 ars old. martha jane's nerosity extends yond her family.

life is more than work. le is a value. and i thk it's important for meo give to and at's why a gift to public . and if i can do a small thg to perpetuate this, thait will coinue for generations to come. that's why martha ne included her publicelevision station in her will. consid joining the community people who want public televisiono span generations.